Transcript
[0:01] - Hello Open Heart Project.
[0:02] Hello Daily Dharma Gathering gatherers.
[0:05] It is so great to be here with you.
[0:09] It is so great to be here with
[0:12] Byron Katie and Stephen Mitchell.
[0:15] To just be with them is a delight.
[0:19] And to talk about their new book
[0:24] A Mind At Home With Itself,
[0:26] which is a beautiful, beautiful read.
[0:29] Kind of hopeful, helpful,
[0:32] shocking in some ways.
[0:35] And as Stephen described Katie
in one of the pages, (laughs)
[0:40] I love this description,
[0:41] helpfully alarming.
[0:43] (Stephen laughs)
[0:45] So welcome.
[0:46] It is so wonderful that you're here.
[0:48] Thank you very much for being here.
[0:50] - Thank you Susan.
[0:51] - Our pleasure.
- Thank you.
[0:54] - So it has been a
pleasure to read this book.
[0:58] It has been a pleasure to learn about
[1:02] the process that you call The Work.
[1:05] And it is also has been as a busy Buddhist
[1:08] a delight to just
[1:12] feel the cohesion between
[1:16] for me my Buddhist studies and this
[1:20] Work it seems that there is no difference.
[1:23] And everybody here in the Open
Heart Project is a meditator.
[1:27] And I guess what I would say to you
[1:30] if you're not familiar
with The Work is that
[1:32] meditation is something
you do on the cushion
[1:34] and The Work is something that you can do
[1:37] off the cushion but is meditation too.
[1:41] So I wonder if you wouldn't
mind just sharing a little bit
[1:45] about The Work,
[1:47] what it is and how you
[1:51] came to it.
[1:53] - The Work is simply a way to identify the
[1:57] judgments, assumptions, the
thoughts that we're thinking,
[2:01] to identify them and question them.
[2:05] So its a way to,
[2:07] honey you have a good
description for it, what is it.
[2:10] - Well I think that's an
excellent description.
[2:12] And it's particularly,
[2:15] The Work I find The Work
is particularly useful
[2:18] for meditators in that
[2:21] the thoughts that rise
and fall during meditation
[2:25] aren't necessarily
[2:28] the core thoughts that are
causing your suffering.
[2:31] So what The Work does,
[2:33] I sometimes think of it as
like an anti-snakebite medicine
[2:38] that you apply and it brings
the poison to the surface
[2:40] so that you can actually deal with it.
[2:43] So I've known quite a few meditators,
[2:46] some of whom who've been
[2:48] doing Buddhist meditation for decades
[2:52] who during an intensive period of The Work
[2:55] find out that they have been
driving themselves crazy
[2:59] with thoughts that they
were never even aware of.
[3:02] So its an extremely powerful adjunct
[3:06] to Buddhist practice in my experience.
[3:09] - And also this inquiry invites,
[3:13] it's a hunger for the mind.
[3:15] In other words a love affair and
[3:17] it invites like every
thought welcome here.
[3:21] Every thought it's like
a show me, show me.
[3:24] And you know here they
come invited or not.
[3:27] But it's a hunger to see what's true,
[3:30] and what's not, what's illusion and
[3:33] what is real and what is not for.
[3:36] What matches the heart and
what is foreign to the heart
[3:39] and it's a practice,
[3:42] there's no doubt about that.
[3:44] It's a practice and
[3:48] it takes stillness and
devotion to the love of truth.
[3:53] - Hmm.
[3:54] - It's kind of another type of incarnation
[3:57] of the spirit of inquiry which is
[4:00] something that it's really vital to have
[4:03] in any kind of meditative practice.
[4:07] And one of the brilliant elements
[4:10] in The Work is that early on Katie
[4:14] realized that it was important
for people to write down
[4:17] these thoughts because
[4:20] in her words that's how you stop the mind.
[4:23] Because the egoistic mind is really tricky
[4:27] and that when you're
actually doing inquiry
[4:30] on a thought it may wriggle
out and change forms
[4:34] and transmogrify into something
that's less threatening
[4:36] to the ego.
[4:38] So that once you write it
down on a piece of paper
[4:41] you have it kind of fixed in time
[4:44] and then you can really
apply Katie's four questions,
[4:48] the four questions of The Work which are
[4:50] is it true, can you absolutely
know that it's true,
[4:54] how do you react, what happens
[4:56] when you believe that thought,
[4:57] which is the cause and effect of it.
[5:00] - And emotions, and everything is there
[5:02] and how do you react when
you believe the thought.
[5:05] You know we see how we
help live out of that.
[5:07] We see the images of past future
[5:10] in our mind's eye and we
are reacting out of that
[5:13] and it's where we say and
do things that cause guilt.
[5:18] Which cements that past
[5:22] as though it's
[5:25] it haunts us.
[5:26] It's like a breeding ground for guilt and
[5:29] then that fourth question,
[5:31] who would I be in that same situation
[5:33] if I didn't believe the thought.
[5:35] Who would you be without your story?
[5:36] Who'd you be without the thought
[5:37] in the same point in time.
[5:43] And it's
[5:45] it really will show one's identity up
[5:48] and in that, it's
[5:52] as though it begins to,
[5:54] we begin to get the joke
and it kind of falls away.
[5:57] And then the next trickster will come.
[6:00] And to welcome it.
[6:02] To welcome it and see you know,
[6:06] it's like, is it valid?
[6:08] Mind, are you valid?
[6:10] And to question that and test it
[6:13] and it's very exciting
obviously when I speak to it,
[6:17] it never gets old.
[6:18] Cause I'm, you mentioned
sitting on the cushion,
[6:22] it's like we don't have
to leave the cushion.
[6:26] Just because we're walking and talking and
[6:28] going to work and rocking our children.
[6:31] You know it's just, it's
we don't leave that cushion
[6:36] once inquiry's alive in us.
[6:38] It's an inner world that
[6:44] if I meet someone and let's
say I hold a grudge on them
[6:49] then I don't hold a grudge on that person.
[6:53] What I'm thinking and
believing onto that person
[6:56] is just like slapping
post-its all over them.
[7:00] So they show up and
they say hi how are you
[7:03] and I slap all these post-its on them
[7:05] as though that is that person.
[7:07] And so you know I'm not
talking to that person.
[7:11] I'm talking to this identity
I believe them to be.
[7:17] And so no wonder we're
confused in the world.
[7:21] - Yeah, and it can feel so unkind.
[7:25] And you I can feel when
someone's doing that to me
[7:29] when they're not talking to me
[7:31] they're talking to some
[7:32] someone who they're seeing.
[7:35] And it feels like an
incredible unkindness and.
[7:38] - And if I do that onto you
[7:41] it is a terrible unkindness and
[7:44] that's my responsibility to question
[7:47] what I'm believing about you
[7:48] so that I can see you.
[7:51] I can know you.
[7:53] Because believing onto
you doesn't show me you.
[7:58] - Right.
[7:59] Well.
[8:01] I found a little something on the Internet
[8:03] called the Judge Your Neighbor worksheet.
[8:05] And I
[8:08] filled it out.
[8:10] And I was wondering if you wouldn't mind
[8:14] hearing it or talking with me about it.
[8:16] - So lets do.
[8:17] Read, what did you
write for the first one.
[8:21] - I will tell you.
[8:22] And for you who are listening,
[8:23] please put your own stories,
[8:25] put your own feelings, put
your own examples in here
[8:28] and I'll show you where
you can find this worksheet
[8:31] so you can do this yourself.
[8:32] So I wrote, this is
something that happened to me
[8:34] like 10 years ago but suddenly
it's been plaguing me again.
[8:38] I am angry
[8:40] with Duncan, who is my husband,
[8:43] because he didn't help me
[8:45] when I begged him to come be with me
[8:48] when I was struggling.
[8:50] - So he didn't help you.
[8:52] So you see that situation
in your mind's eye.
[8:55] You're begging him to help you.
[8:58] So you see, where are you
when you were thinking that?
[9:02] I mean where were you
when you were begging him
[9:04] at the time.
[9:05] - I was on the phone in my apartment
[9:07] in New York City and he was here.
[9:10] - Okay, so
[9:13] angry at Duncan because he didn't help you
[9:17] when you begged him to be with you.
[9:20] Okay, so he didn't help you.
[9:23] So be there in that
situation, he didn't help you,
[9:26] is it true?
[9:28] - Yes, he didn't.
[9:30] I asked him to help and he said no.
[9:32] - So he didn't help you.
[9:34] Can you absolutely know that
it's true he didn't help you?
[9:38] - No.
[9:40] I can't.
[9:41] Maybe there was something in his refusal
[9:43] that was beneficial.
[9:45] - So just be with that a moment.
[9:49] - Mm.
[9:56] - Now in that situation,
[9:58] notice how you reacted.
[10:01] What happened when you
believed the thought
[10:03] that he didn't help you?
[10:08] - I thought I can't trust him.
[10:14] When I really need him,
[10:16] he won't be there for me.
[10:18] - So you lost trust?
[10:21] Now feel the emotions that happened
[10:24] in that moment you believed the thought
[10:28] he didn't help you.
[10:30] He's not helping you,
when you begged him to.
[10:35] - I felt scared.
[10:38] I felt lonely.
[10:41] I felt
[10:44] righteous like you should help someone
[10:47] who you're in a relationship with.
[10:50] I felt abandoned, really abandoned.
[10:54] - Can you feel where you
feel that in your body?
[10:57] - Yeah I do, I feel it right here.
[10:59] - Yeah.
[11:01] So keep that image of
you in that situation,
[11:04] it's very important because
that's what we're meditating on.
[11:08] That moment in time.
[11:11] I'm witnessing you.
[11:13] I mean I don't know where
you were calling from
[11:15] but I have you even in a phone booth.
[11:18] So,
[11:21] now witness you in that same situation.
[11:26] And that fourth question, who would you be
[11:29] in that same situation without the thought
[11:31] he didn't help you.
[11:34] He's not helping you.
[11:40] - I would just help myself, I guess.
[11:42] I would just--
[11:44] - But look at you in the phone booth
[11:46] or wherever you are on
that phone, where you are.
[11:50] Other than what you're
thinking and believing
[11:51] are you okay?
[11:56] - Yeah.
- Yeah.
[11:57] - I guess, you know.
[11:58] - So you'd take all the
post-its off of you.
[12:02] Look at you.
[12:03] Where are you, where are you on the phone?
[12:06] - I was in an apartment
that I was moving out of.
[12:09] And I suddenly became very scared to move
[12:12] and there was just boxes all around and.
[12:14] - So look at you, are
you sitting on the bed,
[12:17] on a chair, are you standing?
[12:19] - Everything was packed, I
was sitting on the floor.
[12:21] - Okay so look at you on the floor.
[12:24] And look around and look at you.
[12:26] Look at what you're
thinking and believing.
[12:30] You're okay.
[12:35] - You know I wanna say
on, yes, from the outside,
[12:39] but on the inside I was
kind of crumbling, I felt--
[12:44] - That's why I'm asking
you, drop your story.
[12:47] Witness you there.
[12:49] I mean you're like a box.
[12:52] Or the floor.
[12:54] Other than what you're
thinking and believing.
[12:57] Look at you, there's no harm.
[13:00] There's, you're in tact,
you're wearing clothes,
[13:04] you're fed, you're watered.
[13:07] Look at the stuff around you.
[13:09] There's so much stuff there you couldn't
[13:10] count the boxes maybe.
[13:13] I mean look you have hair.
[13:15] I mean when you get still in that
[13:18] and you take your story away,
[13:22] you begin to experience everything
from compassion to love.
[13:28] From compassion, love, to gratitude.
[13:33] Now do you need anyone
in that moment in time
[13:36] as you witness you there?
[13:40] - I don't.
[13:41] I don't.
[13:43] - That's really good to know.
[13:44] In the worst of times, other
than what we're thinking
[13:46] and believing, we are so taken care of.
[13:51] That's what you know when
people are talking about
[13:57] what is it that they
talk about having things,
[14:00] being a success, and all of that,
[14:02] well look at you?
[14:04] All this stuff around.
[14:06] (Susan laughs)
[14:07] I mean it's just in that moment.
[14:12] Good to know.
[14:15] - Yeah.
- Now look how innocent
[14:17] you are, other than what
you're thinking and believing.
[14:21] There's no problem.
[14:25] - Well that's true.
[14:27] It was completely, I was
thinking and feeling,
[14:29] I'm alone, no one cares about me,
[14:31] somebody should care about me.
[14:33] But actually I was
[14:36] just sitting in a room with some boxes.
[14:37] - Yeah.
[14:39] So he didn't help you
[14:43] turn it around in that situation, he did.
[14:49] - Find an opposite.
[14:50] - You just find an opposite.
[14:52] Turn around by that I
mean we find opposite
[14:55] and then we try them on as though we're
[14:57] in a shoe store and we see
this marvelous pair of boots
[15:02] and we don't know if they're gonna be
[15:03] as comfortable as they look
or if they'll even fit.
[15:05] So those we find opposites
and we try them on.
[15:10] - I love that.
[15:11] - What does that mean to
you in that situation?
[15:14] He didn't help me, turned around,
[15:15] I didn't help me.
[15:18] - I didn't help me.
[15:19] - So what does that mean
to you as you're more awake
[15:22] to that moment in time now.
[15:28] - I didn't
[15:32] comfort myself, I didn't care.
[15:35] I abandoned myself.
[15:38] - To a dependency.
[15:41] - To a dependency, I
did, I was expecting him
[15:46] to do something.
[15:47] - And when people aren't there for us we
[15:52] (laughs) our opinion of
them definitely changes.
[15:56] - Yes it does.
[15:57] - So in that situation, we
put all those post-its on him.
[16:01] And so we're now
[16:05] identification shifts to
[16:08] I can depend on him to I can't trust him.
[16:10] So your identity shifted in that.
[16:14] You were someone that trusted,
[16:15] and now you're someone that doesn't.
[16:18] Look at all the shifts in identity--
[16:19] - And even worse someone who is betrayed.
[16:23] - I felt that.
- Yeah.
[16:25] So you were, you had a partner and now
[16:28] you have one that's is full of betrayal.
[16:34] - How bout I didn't help him.
[16:38] - That's just, that is,
[16:41] just try that one on.
[16:43] That is so powerful.
[16:47] Why wasn't he
[16:51] coming to be with you in New York City
[16:53] when you were moving?
[16:55] Where is it that you didn't help him
[16:57] when he said I can't be there?
[16:59] - I didn't help him by
[17:03] I assigned blame to him.
[17:06] I posted it on him
[17:10] and I have held it on him
for 10 years probably.
[17:15] I mean I love him when we we're together
[17:17] we have a good relationship I would say,
[17:19] but that's always in the back.
[17:21] - Yeah he says good morning
would you like a cup of tea?
[17:27] And you
[17:28] you're not talking to Duncan,
[17:30] you're talking to
[17:32] the Duncan you believe him to be.
[17:36] - Right.
[17:38] Did not help him
[17:41] by that particular belief.
[17:43] - And you carried it on him.
[17:46] - Yeah.
[17:47] - Yeah.
[17:48] And that's yours, it wasn't his.
[17:50] That came out of you.
[17:55] And as you go to bed tonight,
[17:57] or you shower in the
morning or after the call
[18:00] or driving home somewhere, you know,
[18:03] these things continue to work on you,
[18:05] where is it that I haven't helped him.
[18:08] And you'll just be fed and fed and fed
[18:11] and that's what I mean
by unceasing meditation.
[18:13] To live in these questions,
[18:15] eventually just becomes
[18:18] the only world to
[18:23] in that inner world to understand it
[18:25] and dance in it and just
you know that prayer show me
[18:30] you know it's a way of living
[18:33] that doesn't even need the prayer,
[18:35] we're just shown and shown.
[18:40] It's a beautiful thing
this internal world,
[18:43] when we know how to live out of it.
[18:45] - That's, yes.
[18:47] - And there's a third turn around.
[18:51] - So what's another opposite?
[18:54] He didn't help me.
[18:57] - I didn't help him.
[18:58] He did help me?
[19:01] - He did help you.
[19:05] - How did he help me.
[19:09] He did help me.
[19:11] - I have one would you like to hear it?
[19:13] - I would love to.
[19:14] - He forced you to be responsible.
[19:20] - That's true.
[19:23] That's true.
[19:24] - And you pulled it off.
[19:27] - I did.
[19:29] I feel, I hold this coldness in my heart
[19:32] that I can't seem to dissolve.
[19:35] Around this.
[19:37] - So he helped you, where did he help you,
[19:39] by saying no, I can't come.
[19:43] - I just had to rise
to the occasion, and--
[19:48] - So look at you.
[19:50] Did you need him?
[19:59] - No.
[20:00] I mean not to accomplish this task.
[20:03] - That's what we're talking about.
[20:04] - Right.
[20:08] Right.
[20:10] - I see another way he did help you.
[20:12] - Oh I'd love to hear it.
[20:13] - He gave you an honest no.
[20:16] - Well that's true.
[20:17] - That's very powerful.
- He was honest with you.
[20:19] - That's like living with Stephen.
[20:20] Living with Duncan sounds
like living with Stephen.
[20:23] A no is a no and
[20:25] it's so refreshing.
[20:28] - Right. (laughs)
[20:31] He is good at that.
[20:32] He is super honest.
[20:35] So can I read a little--
[20:37] - So let's look at the, yeah, let's--
[20:39] - Oh I'm sorry.
- Can'ts.
[20:40] I was gonna say let's look at your want.
[20:43] - My want.
[20:46] - This is on the Judge
Your Neighbor worksheet.
[20:49] - Number two.
- Number two.
[20:50] - Yeah, emotional thinking, sorry.
[20:51] I want Duncan to believe
me that I need him
[20:55] and not judge me by his standards.
[20:58] I want him to love me
and show me his love.
[21:03] - Okay that is, those concepts
are so juicy to sit in.
[21:08] And just walk through all four questions.
[21:10] We're meditating on a moment in time.
[21:14] I want him to believe me.
[21:18] Is that true?
[21:21] This is very deep work, we must sit in it.
[21:25] I want him not to judge me.
[21:26] What kind of an open mind
[21:30] doesn't want people to judge them?
[21:42] - I don't want him to--
[21:45] - You want him to believe
you, is that true?
[21:55] - It is.
[21:57] - And notice how you react (clears throat)
[22:00] and what happens, emotionally,
[22:03] and how you treat him on
the phone emotionally.
[22:06] Witness your attitude on the phone
[22:09] when you believe the thought
[22:10] that you want him to believe you.
[22:13] - Yeah, I get angry, and
[22:17] pissy, and
[22:20] self-righteous.
[22:23] And far from him, distant from him.
[22:28] - And then you want him to not judge,
[22:30] then you want him not to judge you.
[22:33] - Mmhmm.
[22:35] - So you want Duncan to believe you.
[22:39] So witness yourself, who would you be,
[22:42] without the thought,
[22:44] that you want Duncan to believe you.
[22:51] - I would just believe me.
[22:53] I would just be
[22:57] I wouldn't need that.
[22:59] I could just be with him
[23:04] and he could be with me.
[23:05] And it wouldn't be a thing.
[23:08] - I want Duncan to believe
me, turn it around,
[23:11] I want me.
[23:13] - I want me to believe me.
[23:20] Yeah.
[23:21] (everyone laughs)
[23:23] - Yeah see you're not buying
it, neither did Duncan.
[23:26] So I want Duncan to believe me.
[23:29] He knew you were capable
[23:30] and maybe you were the last to know but.
[23:34] I want Duncan to believe me.
[23:36] Another turnaround, I want me to believe.
[23:41] - Duncan?
- Yeah.
[23:44] So what was he saying to you?
[23:46] - I'm not coming, I'm not coming.
[23:49] I'm not coming to New York.
[23:51] And I don't think you need me to.
[23:55] - So as it turns out, he was right.
[23:57] (everyone laughs)
[24:00] (Susan shushes)
[24:02] (everyone laughs)
[24:03] So I want me to believe Duncan.
[24:04] So, when we're meditating on this.
[24:07] I want me to believe Duncan
[24:09] and we just see you know
just what does that mean
[24:12] to believe Duncan and just get still and
[24:16] we're shown, we're
shown through images and
[24:23] words and.
[24:25] We experience it, we're just witnessing.
[24:28] What I love about The Work
is we don't have to guess.
[24:31] We ask, we get still, we
wait, and we're shown.
[24:36] It's a given.
[24:39] But when we ask, we need to be asking
[24:42] from an authentic place.
[24:44] We really have to want to know before
[24:49] something so wise would meet the question.
[24:52] - Mm.
[24:54] - And I see a third turnaround.
[24:59] I don't want Duncan to believe me.
[25:02] Why could that be true?
[25:08] - Very juicy.
[25:15] - Because
[25:17] I guess because I'm
[25:20] asking him to believe that I am
[25:23] frail.
[25:25] When I'm not.
[25:29] Actually.
[25:32] - And it could also be that you
[25:34] want him to believe whatever he believes.
[25:40] - Yeah.
[25:41] - It's not as though we can
change their minds anyway.
[25:44] - That's a fact.
[25:46] That's a fact.
[25:48] - I mean the freedom of that,
[25:49] wanting somebody that you
love to believe whatever
[25:52] he or she believes is amazing.
[25:55] - It means that we don't
ever have to change
[25:57] another person's mind and also if I...
[26:03] If Stephen says no I try to
change his mind, he says yes.
[26:07] Then, you know,
[26:10] what does that feel like on me?
[26:13] And also he changes his
mind and then I take credit
[26:16] for changing his mind.
[26:18] But no, it was he that changed his mind.
[26:21] He did that and I'm taking
[26:25] credit for it.
[26:27] - Right, right.
[26:30] So,
[26:32] this is
[26:34] you are pointing to a kind of trust
[26:38] and trustworthiness of reality,
[26:43] I guess you would say,
[26:45] that is sometimes very difficult to
[26:53] hold onto.
[26:55] - Something that as we
sit in this practice we
[27:01] and meditators are way ahead of the game.
[27:05] You know they just move a little inquiry
[27:08] into the practice,
[27:09] when something is getting their attention,
[27:12] and oh my gosh it's
sitting and is it true?
[27:15] If you sit in
[27:21] just sit in is it true
and just wait to be shown
[27:26] all four questions and all the turnarounds
[27:28] show up in that without even asking them
[27:30] if you really get still in is it true.
[27:34] - You know and Susan
you said it's difficult
[27:36] to trust at that level.
[27:38] It may be at first but when you learn
[27:41] how not to believe your own thoughts,
[27:43] it becomes effortless,
[27:45] as effortless as breathing.
[27:46] I mean you have the freedom yourself
[27:49] and you're only too happy
to give that freedom to
[27:52] the people you love.
[27:53] I mean it's what you want,
[27:55] you want them not to
believe you, for example.
[27:58] So it's really nothing.
[28:00] - Especially when we wake up to,
[28:02] we're not really believe in ourselves.
[28:06] There you are capable and
[28:09] it all shows up on this worksheet.
[28:13] So I want Duncan to believe me,
[28:15] turned around, I want me to believe me.
[28:17] Would you believe you?
[28:21] I mean look at you, you pulled it off.
[28:24] - I did.
[28:25] And yeah, I don't
[28:28] know that I would believe me.
[28:30] - Yeah, yeah.
[28:31] - Because that thought originally was
[28:33] I want him to believe that
I can't do it, really.
[28:38] - I want him to believe that I need him.
[28:41] - Yeah.
- Yeah and that's tantamount--
[28:42] - You're frail without him.
[28:43] - That's tantamount to I can't do it
[28:45] which is a really heavy thought.
[28:48] - Right.
[28:49] - And he married a woman that can.
[28:51] So you're shifting identities on him.
[28:53] - Right.
[28:54] - And neither one of you are buying it.
[28:57] - Right.
[28:58] - Anyway, wonderful things to sit in.
[29:01] - Yes, absolutely.
[29:04] So, there's, I would just like to read,
[29:08] if you don't mind, just this,
[29:10] I think this points to what
we're talking about here.
[29:12] This from Everything
Happens For You, Not To You
[29:17] chapter of your book.
[29:20] - Yeah, A Mind At Home With Itself.
[29:22] - A Mind At Home With Itself.
[29:24] Look at that beautiful face!
[29:25] Look at that face!
(Stephen and Katie laugh)
[29:27] That is a face that you wanna look at.
[29:31] - A Mind At Home With Itself
[29:33] is the end of war, the
end of war with the self,
[29:37] is the end of war in one's world.
[29:39] Some places that's really worth
[29:41] questioning the mind as it appears.
[29:45] Is worth doing and I
interrupted you again Susan.
[29:49] - That's quite alright,
no that's quite alright.
[29:50] And it unfolds
[29:53] framed by the diamond sutra.
[29:56] Which is so beautiful and I wonder
[29:59] Stephen, could you just explain
[30:02] what the diamond sutra is?
[30:05] And I would love to
know a little bit about
[30:08] how you worked together to form this
[30:13] sort of dialogue between
[30:17] The Work and the diamond sutra
[30:20] which this like seamless.
[30:22] - The Buddha and with
his students the buddhi.
[30:28] - Yeah it's, the diamond
sutra is a dialogue.
[30:31] It was written in about the
year 350 of the Common Era
[30:35] by someone who had a very clear
[30:39] vision of the dharma and
[30:44] and expressed it by a dialogue between
[30:48] a fictional Buddha and
his, one of his students.
[30:52] Which everybody then believed
was the historical Buddha.
[30:56] This is how people used
to write scriptures
[30:58] in those days.
[31:00] So it's a wonderful dialogue
[31:04] that centers on the
[31:09] the issue of generosity.
[31:12] And the central point of
the diamond sutra is that
[31:15] the more you see into the
unreality of the concept of self.
[31:20] And the fact that there
is no difference between
[31:23] self and other,
[31:25] the more you naturally live a
life of unfettered generosity.
[31:31] That's the point.
[31:32] And it's expressed in various ways.
[31:35] One of the famous lines from the sutra is
[31:38] develop a mind that abides nowhere.
[31:41] Or develop a mind that is
not dependent on anything
[31:45] you see, hear, taste, touch or think.
[31:49] So as for the way we work together, I
[31:55] it came to me that this sutra would be
[31:58] an excellent framework
for having Katie talk
[32:02] about her experience because
it's so much in harmony
[32:06] with the spirit of The Work,
[32:08] with the spirit of inquiry.
[32:10] So I created a somewhat free version
[32:13] of the diamond sutra
because I thought that the
[32:17] current translations which are all
[32:20] scholarly and somewhat academic
[32:23] were very hard to penetrate.
[32:26] I had that experience myself when I was
[32:28] a very young Zen student,
in the early 70s.
[32:31] And I've known people who have
[32:33] tried to read it a number of times
[32:35] and have given up really early
[32:38] because it was so impenetrable.
[32:41] So once I had my version finished,
[32:44] which I tried to make as
accessible as possible,
[32:47] I read it to Katie, she loved it
[32:49] and then we began to sit
for awhile every day.
[32:54] - Well I more than loved it.
[32:55] I wept.
[32:57] It was and as Stephen
would question me about
[33:02] you know speak to it.
[33:03] Speak out of your own experience to it.
[33:05] When he'd read me a chapter.
[33:08] I would so often say,
[33:10] one word that any word
that I would add to that
[33:15] would take away.
[33:16] There's nothing needed there.
[33:19] And I really want to say,
I really want to say that
[33:23] because it's so.
[33:25] And Stephen encouraged me--
[33:28] - I respectfully disagreed.
[33:29] (everyone laughs)
[33:31] I thought it was marvelous
that she was illuminating it.
[33:34] - And he has, and I trust Stephen.
[33:36] And so I would just follow
the simple directions.
[33:39] Just he'd ask and I'd respond out of
[33:45] out of my own experience.
[33:47] And so we have A Mind At Home With Itself.
[33:51] - And I insisted because I
thought the stories of Katie,
[33:55] of Katie's awakening and of her
[33:58] learning to be human again or
[34:02] for the first time, from
her perspective, were so,
[34:08] such a great help
[34:10] for people to understand this sutra,
[34:13] and the essence of Buddhism really.
[34:15] Because they gave flesh and blood
[34:17] to these sometimes abstract notions or
[34:20] notions which might be a
little difficult to grasp
[34:24] for some people.
[34:25] And the stories are
[34:28] in my experience riveting
and challenging and
[34:32] a beautiful and vivid
[34:34] and so I would ask questions
about anything in the sutra
[34:38] that seemed to me to be
[34:40] a little abstract or a
little difficult to grasp
[34:43] and point her in particular direction.
[34:46] And then when I had
[34:49] acquired a mass of material,
[34:53] I would begin to massage it
[34:57] from spoken English
[34:59] into written English.
[35:00] We sometimes joke that
Katie's the only living person
[35:04] that I've translated.
[35:06] After all these ancient texts.
[35:09] But the challenge and the joy
of that was to find a balance
[35:15] between what was meticulously
accurate to her experience
[35:20] which sometimes could be almost
[35:24] unintelligible because it was so qualified
[35:27] and so beautifully
[35:31] complicated that it was hard to grasp.
[35:35] And between that, what was accurate
[35:38] and what was comprehensible.
[35:40] So threading the line between them was
[35:45] an interesting challenge.
[35:48] And I loved it and she's happy with it.
[35:54] So there we are, that's
how it got written.
[35:57] - I feel like the way your hands are
[35:59] formed is how it got written.
[36:01] (everyone laughs)
[36:04] There's a story in the
book that I would love,
[36:07] I'd love it if you would share
[36:09] because so many people are
[36:13] sort of engaged in
[36:15] a lot of vitriolic
conversations with people
[36:18] on opposite ends of political spectrum and
[36:22] there's just a lot of
very painful conversation
[36:26] happening and not happening.
[36:28] And there's a story in the book about
[36:30] a woman that you worked with
[36:32] who you helped
[36:34] whose husband came storming into your home
[36:37] with a lot of threatening
[36:41] presence.
- Yeah.
[36:42] - And I wonder if you could recount that
[36:45] so that we could hear what it's like
[36:47] to meet that kind of
rage and threateningness
[36:52] with this mind of no mind.
[36:55] - Well his wife.
[36:58] I was agoraphobic so my doors were locked,
[37:01] my curtains were drawn,
you know, for years.
[37:04] And so isolated so then
[37:10] word started to get out
[37:11] from one to the other to the other.
[37:14] So people wanted to--
[37:16] - This is after your experience.
[37:18] - Yeah.
- Yeah.
[37:19] - And people wanted to
[37:21] to talk to me and.
[37:24] So here I am from one life to another,
[37:26] my door's unlocked, my
window's open, and so
[37:30] everyone was invited and.
[37:33] So this woman would come and she was,
[37:36] she was just, her life was
just shifting and shifting
[37:39] and her husband was very upset.
[37:41] And as it turned out, he was,
[37:44] in his words, a Kansas City cop
[37:47] and we know what to do
with people like you.
[37:49] And basically to burn my house
[37:53] with my children in it,
[37:55] you know it was, he was
really quite something.
[37:58] And what I saw was a terrified man.
[38:04] And bodies don't fool me.
[38:06] That was just this
[38:09] in a terrified man.
[38:11] So I listened is what I did.
[38:13] I just listened.
[38:15] And I could relate, he would say things,
[38:18] and my mind is he right?
[38:20] Is it true?
[38:22] Do I think that way?
[38:23] Do I do that?
[38:24] So his mind was not separate from my mind.
[38:29] If I can hear his voice, that's mine.
[38:34] That's not outside of me, that's in.
[38:36] So there was nothing going on but inquiry
[38:40] inside of me.
[38:41] So he is this
[38:44] wind, this gale coming at me, just
[38:48] and inside of me it's quiet and just
[38:51] really you know it's ah, oh I see.
[38:54] And so as in that listening
[38:57] in that listening he
[39:01] whatever that was for him.
[39:05] I think the Buddhist would say
[39:08] I was experiencing compassion
[39:10] but there was a connection in that that
[39:13] no one has the power to
break connection with me.
[39:16] What I'm thinking and believing
[39:18] is the only break in
connection that can happen.
[39:21] So as he was, whatever happened for him,
[39:24] in that silence of me,
[39:26] just so connected.
[39:29] Unwaveringly.
[39:31] He began to sob and--
[39:35] - He fell into your arms.
[39:36] - He fell into my arms.
[39:37] And I mean
[39:40] love is the power.
[39:42] And judgment is
[39:45] like
[39:46] the mind's trick.
[39:49] Say question me, question me.
[39:51] Notice the disconnect.
[39:52] You know it's like a temple bell.
[39:54] And so
[39:57] in that connection and
[40:01] whatever happened, she never came back,
[40:03] he never came back.
[40:06] - Were you scared?
[40:07] - Oh no.
[40:09] No, I have,
[40:11] what self would be...
[40:15] It's like,
[40:17] if you imagine yourself
[40:20] at breakfast this morning
or getting up this morning
[40:23] and you imagine yourself
going to sleep tonight.
[40:27] I mean what self are you?
[40:29] The self there because you
can see an image of you
[40:33] like you saw an image
of you on the telephone.
[40:36] So that's a self,
[40:38] and then you're talking
to me, that's a self.
[40:41] Or that was a self, it's
the self you're seeing now
[40:44] of the past.
[40:46] So you tonight imagining going to bed.
[40:50] From here now, that's a self.
[40:51] So who am I?
[40:53] Not that, not that, not that.
[40:56] You know there's, those aren't objects,
[40:59] that's imagination.
[41:01] - The point is that when she wasn't--
[41:03] - So what would I fear?
[41:04] - When she wasn't projecting the future
[41:07] which she doesn't do.
- Right.
[41:09] - But still--
- There can be no fear.
[41:11] - But still what self is he going to kill,
[41:13] that's the question?
[41:15] - Right.
[41:16] - You know was I frightened?
[41:17] What self was he going to hurt?
[41:20] Now if I imagine him coming back
[41:22] to burn down my house and I'm not
[41:24] aware enough to know
that that's mind play,
[41:28] then oh my gosh my children, oh my home,
[41:32] oh my gosh I can burn alive and
[41:35] but that's mind play.
[41:38] So understanding that
[41:44] the difference simply between
[41:46] what's real and what's imagination
[41:49] and then no answer to
who am I is the answer.
[41:53] Not that, not that.
[41:56] It's
[41:57] a beautiful thing.
[41:59] It's a beautiful thing
because it will give you self,
[42:02] self, self, self.
[42:05] - I understand the words you're saying.
[42:09] And I'm seeing the logic
but I can't imagine
[42:14] personally I but it is really.
[42:18] - Well if you look at
it and look at it simply
[42:21] like he's threatening to
[42:24] burn down the house with
my children and I in it
[42:27] at a time when we'll
never suspect it, okay.
[42:30] So what self is he going to burn?
[42:32] What children is he going to burn.
[42:34] What could I fear?
[42:37] - Pain.
[42:38] - Yeah but that's, my children...
[42:42] Those are false selves
in my head in the moment.
[42:46] Am I going to leave
this man for falseness?
[42:52] What is he gonna kill?
[42:55] - (laughs) Yeah I see you
asking that question like,
[42:57] you're like, it's so
clear what the answer is?
[43:00] - It's so obvious.
[43:01] - It could be the self of the future
[43:02] he's going to kill well
that looks okay to me.
[43:06] Because that is imagination.
[43:09] - You know if you spend enough time
[43:11] in Katie's fourth question,
[43:13] who would I be without that thought
[43:16] this becomes absolutely obvious to you
[43:18] and there can be no fear.
[43:20] Cause there's no future.
[43:22] - I actually get that in the moment
[43:25] that I ask the question.
[43:26] - There.
- Because there's only space.
[43:28] - So that's why there's such a practice
[43:30] and in who am I without my story.
[43:34] You know sitting there with the boxes and
[43:38] look at you how innocent you are.
[43:41] You don't know your own power.
[43:44] And there you are with
everything you need.
[43:48] So if compassion isn't experienced there.
[43:51] This is just sitting in a moment of time
[43:54] and the question is who am I being
[43:57] in that situation
[43:58] without the thought I need him to help me.
[44:04] - Yeah.
[44:06] I just wanna go back to what
you said about compassion
[44:08] that when you said I guess
that's what Buddhists
[44:11] would call compassion.
[44:12] Then I'm gonna start look for
questions from other humans
[44:14] that are not myself.
[44:16] Or not not my self or whatever.
[44:17] (Stephen and Katie laugh)
[44:21] That to me sounds so mighty.
[44:25] - I think you just caught false selves.
[44:27] (Susan laughs)
[44:28] You did didn't you?
[44:30] - I did.
[44:30] - You did, you did. (laughs)
[44:33] - I did. (laughs)
[44:36] I love the description of
compassion as there being
[44:38] no difference.
[44:40] Like, you know I think sometimes
[44:43] I or people think well compassion is
[44:45] you hear something sad and you go
[44:46] oh that, I'm sorry.
[44:48] Or I feel sad about that
[44:50] but it's really you feel the
sadness in your own heart
[44:52] as your own somehow.
[44:55] There's no division.
[44:57] - And there's no sadness.
[45:00] As well.
[45:02] - Well that, I'm gonna
have to think about.
[45:04] - Well if you,
[45:07] if something terrible, you're telling me
[45:10] that something terrible happened to you.
[45:12] Let's say you lost a
child or whatever it is
[45:17] and I imagine what that
would feel like if it were me
[45:22] and I don't know I'm doing that
[45:24] it's just that I see those images
[45:26] that I don't realize I'm seeing,
[45:28] and I see me without
my child in the future,
[45:31] and I don't know that I'm seeing this.
[45:34] I'm feeling all of this as
you're telling me your story
[45:36] so I am
[45:40] connecting what that must feel like.
[45:43] So what I'm experiencing
[45:46] are those false images,
lets call them false images.
[45:50] And I'm experiencing that
[45:53] and it's how I react
when I'm witnessing that,
[45:56] when I'm believing that.
[45:58] And so I am completely
disconnected from you.
[46:03] I'm not, I am not with you, I'm into self.
[46:06] So I cannot feel what you feel.
[46:09] What I love about separate bodies is that
[46:12] when you hurt, I don't.
[46:13] I can't, I can imagine
what that feels like.
[46:18] But what I also love about
is when I hurt, you don't.
[46:22] So if I hurt and that's everything from
[46:25] sadness to devastation, I am,
[46:30] I can put that on a Judge
Your Neighbor worksheet
[46:32] and wake myself up so
that I am connected to you
[46:35] in your sorrow, in your
pain, in your fear,
[46:38] in your sadness.
[46:39] It's what would disconnect
me from you is on me.
[46:43] And that is a selfish state of mind.
[46:47] If I think I'm feeling your pain.
[46:50] But it's almost like if I
don't suffer when you suffer,
[46:56] I don't love you.
[46:59] But suffering isn't love.
[47:01] So when we get these things straight
[47:06] then I am left when you are hurt
[47:08] to serve you
[47:10] selflessly.
[47:13] And wisdom takes the whole thing over.
[47:16] And it's fast, it can see, it can hear,
[47:18] it's not blind.
[47:20] So
[47:22] but compassion you know
[47:24] we relate and,
[47:28] as Stephen says, there's no sadness in it
[47:31] or fear in it.
[47:34] - Well you talk about it,
[47:36] you talk about it several
times in the book,
[47:39] and you just mentioned it.
[47:41] And for example,
[47:46] you said,
[47:48] uh-oh, where'd it go.
[47:50] Well I don't have to
tell you what you said.
[47:54] "When I say I love you there's
no personality talking,
[47:57] "it's self-love.
[47:58] "I'm only talking to myself.
[47:59] "More accurately, it is
only talking to itself."
[48:04] - That's a beautiful dance.
[48:06] There is no other.
[48:09] - Yeah.
[48:10] So, it is--
[48:13] - You are only who I imagine you to be
[48:14] so it's always the self
making love with the self.
[48:20] Your mind, another way of saying that is,
[48:22] your mind, you belong to me.
[48:25] How can I say that?
[48:27] You are who I believe you to be.
[48:29] You can never be more or less.
[48:31] And another way I love to say it is
[48:32] I am who you believe me to be.
[48:35] Let's say there are
[48:38] several thousand people listening
[48:40] there are several
thousand different Susans,
[48:43] several thousand different Byron Katies
[48:45] and Stephen Mitchells and so
[48:47] I am who you believe me to be.
[48:49] I can never be more or less.
[48:51] So if you don't love me,
[48:54] and it's not personal if you do or don't
[48:55] because I'm in you.
[48:58] So if you don't love me that's on you.
[49:01] So we can do better.
[49:03] We can do better.
[49:05] You know this self-love leaves us free
[49:08] to serve the beautiful thing about,
[49:11] the beautiful thing about
understanding the mind
[49:14] is you come out loving the world.
[49:17] The world's internal but you love it.
[49:19] Even
[49:21] under all circumstances.
[49:23] I can't find
[49:26] an exception.
[49:28] But I'm always looking
and that's that beautiful
[49:32] inquiring mind.
[49:33] - Right.
[49:35] I believe you, completely.
[49:38] Here are a couple questions.
[49:41] May I share them with you?
[49:43] Okay.
[49:44] I don't know how to welcome
some of the tragedies
[49:47] I've experienced as being something
[49:49] that is happening for me, not to me.
[49:53] Could you help me understand.
[49:55] Thank you for your help, Katie.
[49:57] - Well I'd say first of all,
[50:00] it's understandable.
[50:01] How could you, how could you?
[50:04] To deny pain is
[50:07] that's not helpful.
[50:09] If I hurt, I hurt.
[50:11] And that is you know we just start from
[50:16] base one.
[50:18] But I can go back to those moments
[50:22] in time, just the way we saw
you on the telephone, Susan.
[50:26] I can go back to those moments in time
[50:28] and I can identify,
[50:30] I can get so still, that I can identify
[50:35] in that situation what
I was actually thinking
[50:37] and believing about the situation.
[50:41] And put those thoughts on a worksheet.
[50:44] And I can get still and ask myself
[50:48] is it true?
[50:50] And sit in that.
[50:52] And be open to what I'm shown.
[50:56] In other words, you don't have to guess
[50:58] is it true or not.
[50:59] You'll be shown, you don't have to guess
[51:01] how you react when you
believe the thought.
[51:04] It will be shown to you.
[51:06] You've, in your world you have lived it.
[51:09] It's pain, it's suffering,
it's separation,
[51:14] it's great loss,
[51:16] it's, we become bitter
and old in our youth.
[51:22] And old age should be youthful.
[51:25] You know we are, the body's (laughs)
[51:32] they're a bit worn et cetera
to the eye but the heart,
[51:36] the mind, is new.
[51:38] It's new.
[51:39] It's always growing, it
never ceases to be a child,
[51:43] even in its maturity.
[51:45] So sweetheart that's what I did.
[51:49] And that's what I would suggest to anyone
[51:53] that's suffering is
[51:57] simply that and also The Work is
[52:00] how to do The Work is
always free on thework.com.
[52:03] And that Judge Your Neighbor worksheet,
[52:05] no newsletter to sign up for.
[52:07] Nothing in your way.
[52:09] You just push print, it's yours.
[52:12] And there's no limit to that.
[52:14] And there's also a One
Belief at a Time worksheet
[52:18] where you can fill in a
Judge Your Neighbor worksheet
[52:22] and move any concept there
[52:25] to the One Belief at a Time worksheet
[52:28] and there are what I call
training wheels there.
[52:31] You know they're just kind of markers
[52:34] that kind of hold you in
[52:37] expanding your mind, like sub-questions
[52:40] to those questions.
[52:42] - That's great.
[52:43] What's it called, One Belief at a Time?
[52:45] - Uh-huh.
[52:46] - I'd like to add one thing.
[52:48] - Please.
[52:51] - Many of the thoughts around
[52:54] tragedy that people suffer from greatly,
[52:58] are variations on
[53:00] the thought this shouldn't have happened.
[53:03] So that's a very powerful
thought to question.
[53:07] - And there's something else.
[53:09] So Susan look at the last one,
[53:12] statement number six on the
Judge Your Neighbor worksheet.
[53:14] What did you write there?
[53:17] - What is it about the
situation that you don't want,
[53:20] don't ever want to experience again?
[53:22] I don't ever want to question my trust
[53:27] in him to care about me.
[53:30] - Okay, I'm willing to, and read it.
[53:33] I'm willing to.
[53:36] - I'm willing to question my trust in him
[53:40] to care about me?
- Yeah I'm willing to want
[53:41] to question my trust in Duncan.
[53:43] - I'm willing to.
- Yeah, I'm willing to.
[53:46] In other words I'm willing
to doubt him again.
[53:52] - That...
[53:54] - I look forward to.
[53:56] - That...
[53:57] (Stephen laughs)
[54:01] I don't look forward to it.
[54:03] - It could happen and that's the point.
[54:06] - Well it will happen--
- You don't have a choice.
[54:09] So if it happens again,
[54:11] you know there's work to be done.
[54:14] It's another worksheet.
[54:17] It's not done until it's done.
[54:22] It will take us deeper and deeper.
[54:24] It's like I don't ever want,
[54:27] I don't ever want my children to be hurt.
[54:31] I'm willing that my children are hurt.
[54:33] I look forward that my children are hurt
[54:36] because if they're hurt,
[54:40] and I suffer it just becomes all about me.
[54:45] So,
[54:47] it's not done until my
children can be safe around me
[54:50] to be hurt.
[54:52] - Mmm.
[54:53] - You know our children get hurt
[54:54] and it becomes all about us.
[54:56] Until finally they can't
even share things with us
[54:59] or they have to be careful.
[55:01] So I'm willing for my children
to be hurt, I look forward.
[55:04] You know this is earth school.
[55:08] This is earth school and there
is nothing that comes to mind
[55:12] that isn't for us.
[55:15] - (laughs) I really love that.
[55:19] I really, really do.
[55:21] - You know if I can't love my thoughts,
[55:22] I can't love the world.
[55:24] If I don't understand my thoughts,
[55:25] then I'm not understanding
the creation of everything.
[55:30] Everything that we apparently see.
[55:35] - Let me give you another
question, if I may.
[55:38] Because
[55:40] I could pause on that for a long time.
[55:44] This question is from Jenna.
[55:47] She says, I use The Work
[55:50] in my own work as a nutrition therapist,
[55:53] particularly as it pertains to body image.
[55:56] For example, I'll never find
love because of my body.
[55:59] Sometimes when we get to the question
[56:01] about whether something is absolutely true
[56:03] it can be so difficult
for them to not believe
[56:07] that their negative
thought about themselves
[56:09] is inherently true.
[56:11] How can I help them see beyond this?
[56:13] Thank you.
[56:15] - Well when you're doing inquiry like
[56:20] it's like
[56:22] if you had a choice, I want my body to be
[56:26] beautiful, healthy,
[56:29] flexible,
[56:33] or I want my thinking, my thoughts to be
[56:36] beauty and beautiful and
healthy and flexible,
[56:40] what would you choose if
you had to make a choice?
[56:43] Body or mind?
[56:45] - Mind.
[56:46] - I mean it's like a no brainer.
[56:49] - Right.
[56:50] - And but we take our bodies to
[56:54] to the gym and
[56:57] how often do we take our minds to the gym?
[56:59] How often do we question them,
[57:01] we just believe them like innocents.
[57:03] And that is the cause of all
the suffering in one's world.
[57:09] So how can
[57:11] I help my clients see beyond.
[57:13] I think there's a Judge of Body worksheet
[57:16] at thework.com I'm not sure
[57:18] but you can take a Judge
Your Neighbor worksheet
[57:20] and just judge the physical body.
[57:23] Like I am saddened, or
I'm hopeless because
[57:29] my body is too, you could say fat,
[57:32] thin, tall, short, old,
young, ugly, beaut--
[57:36] I mean it's whatever it is for you.
[57:39] So I am saddened at my
body because it is so ugly.
[57:47] So I question that.
[57:49] My body is ugly.
[57:50] Now when you sit in my body is ugly?
[57:52] What body would that be?
[57:54] You close your eyes.
[57:56] And you
[57:58] like my body is too ugly.
[57:59] Well the body that you're
seeing in your mind's eye
[58:03] no one has ever seen their body actually.
[58:06] No one has ever seen their body.
[58:08] We look in the mirror and we
put judgments on the mirror
[58:13] and what we see in the mirror
and we think that's us.
[58:17] That's crazy.
[58:18] (Susan laughs)
[58:19] No one knows what they look like.
[58:21] And
[58:23] are you ugly
[58:27] if you're not comparing
your body as you see it
[58:31] with any other body in the world.
[58:33] You're beautiful.
[58:34] You cannot be out of sync.
[58:37] It's impossible.
[58:39] So
[58:41] and don't believe me, everyone
test it for yourselves.
[58:44] But I want, let's see,
[58:46] I'm angry at my body because it is ugly.
[58:50] When we turn that around
[58:51] I'm angry at my thoughts,
[58:55] my thinking about my body.
[58:57] - Right.
[58:58] - And so it just becomes obvious
[59:00] when you do a Judge of Body worksheet
[59:02] and where you have, anywhere
you have an object like body,
[59:05] a physical, an object, then you put,
[59:08] my thoughts or my thinking.
[59:10] But if you fill in a worksheet
[59:13] and you do only the turnarounds,
[59:16] and only those substitutes.
[59:17] It is very tempting
[59:20] but that's not The Work.
[59:24] It'll set you free for a while
[59:26] and your unworked
thoughts will override it,
[59:30] override that enlightenment,
[59:32] just like they're
overriding your wisdom now.
[59:36] So
[59:38] question them, do it all.
[59:40] Don't miss the questions and
then when you turn around
[59:42] you're more educated as
you go from statement one.
[59:46] Then you have a more enlightened mind
[59:47] to go to statement two.
[59:49] And then you have those
two that you've set
[59:51] and you have a more enlightened mind
[59:53] that you're taking to question three.
[59:55] A more enlightened mind
that you're taking to four
[59:57] on the worksheet, and five, and six, so
[1:00:00] I just
[1:00:04] I didn't skip any and
[1:00:06] I don't skip any and I invite people.
[1:00:08] I mean without comparison, you know,
[1:00:11] just love the one you're with.
[1:00:13] (Susan laughs)
[1:00:14] - There's another point here, too.
[1:00:16] If I may.
[1:00:19] The question is how can you
help your clients see beyond
[1:00:23] the thought that for instance,
[1:00:24] my body should be healthier.
[1:00:27] There's a temptation when a client answers
[1:00:31] to the question is it true,
[1:00:32] or can you absolutely know it's true
[1:00:34] that my body should be healthier.
[1:00:36] And they answer yes,
[1:00:38] there's a temptation to want
to nudge them toward a no.
[1:00:42] And Katie often emphasizes that
[1:00:44] yes is just as good an answer as no.
[1:00:47] - It'll all show up as we go.
[1:00:49] - And the point is that
[1:00:51] the questions of The Work
are as it were stacked.
[1:00:56] Even if you say yes and
are totally convinced
[1:00:59] at that point of asking
yourself the second question
[1:01:03] that it's absolutely true,
what you're thinking--
[1:01:06] - It's okay to say yes.
[1:01:08] - By the time you
[1:01:10] sink into the third question,
[1:01:13] how do I react, what happens
when I believe that thought?
[1:01:17] And see the cause and effect
of believing the thought.
[1:01:19] Then see beyond the thought
in the fourth question.
[1:01:23] And then see how the
opposites of the thought,
[1:01:26] my body shouldn't be
healthier for example,
[1:01:29] are just as true as the original thought.
[1:01:32] At that point once you've gone
through the whole process,
[1:01:36] there's a great possibility
[1:01:39] that your yes will have
deteriorated, disintegrated
[1:01:42] by that point and you'll
see something more.
[1:01:45] So without
[1:01:47] helping quote unquote
your client see beyond
[1:01:52] the thought at the beginning,
[1:01:53] you're actually doing
them a great service.
[1:01:56] Just as your husband did you
a service by not helping.
[1:02:01] You let them find their own answers.
[1:02:04] And it's all, it's embedded in the way
[1:02:07] the questions are stacked.
[1:02:09] - Honey that's so important.
[1:02:10] That is so important.
[1:02:13] That's just
[1:02:14] such beautiful, accurate guidance.
[1:02:17] Just you know yes okay, so I'm hopeless.
[1:02:21] Okay can I absolutely know that it's true.
[1:02:23] I'm too ugly.
[1:02:24] Yes, yes, okay.
[1:02:26] So just notice and move to the next one.
[1:02:29] Notice how you react when
you believe the thought.
[1:02:32] Get still.
[1:02:33] And you meditators again you have
[1:02:36] such a beautiful head start just
[1:02:38] witness with your eyes closed
[1:02:40] how you react when you believe the thought
[1:02:43] that you're questioning.
[1:02:44] The notice in that situation
that you've anchored on
[1:02:48] just like Susan at the
phone with the boxes,
[1:02:52] her sitting on the floor.
[1:02:53] Anchor, that's the anchor.
[1:02:56] And who would you be without the thought
[1:02:58] and then turn it around,
[1:02:59] try those turnarounds on
like a new pair of shoes.
[1:03:03] - (laughs) I love that.
[1:03:05] I think we have time for one more.
[1:03:08] - Okay.
[1:03:09] - If you don't mind.
[1:03:10] This is from Karen.
[1:03:12] Karen says, I've been following The Work
[1:03:14] and listen to many of your podcasts.
[1:03:16] It's so helpful in so many ways
[1:03:18] but here is where I get confused.
[1:03:20] I understand how we project
our stories onto ourselves
[1:03:23] and to others,
[1:03:25] but at what point do we
stop finding turnarounds
[1:03:28] and realize that
[1:03:30] the situation is just not okay.
[1:03:33] I feel like the turnaround
process makes me
[1:03:35] find excuses to tolerate
a person or situation
[1:03:38] when perhaps I'm better
off just walking away
[1:03:41] and changing a situation.
[1:03:43] I get so mixed up with
the turnaround part.
[1:03:45] - Yes, so
[1:03:48] you know
[1:03:49] The Work, it's a body of work.
[1:03:52] And it's a way of sitting in a meditation
[1:03:55] from beginning to end.
[1:03:57] And it's you know I refer
to it often as checkmate.
[1:04:02] And it's you know we don't,
[1:04:03] if you just go to turnarounds,
[1:04:05] the ego loves that.
[1:04:07] It is just gonna just override
you all over the place.
[1:04:11] So we're just
[1:04:14] I invite you just to slow down
[1:04:16] and start with is it true and
[1:04:19] to remember that this work
is done with eyes closed.
[1:04:23] And I invite you
[1:04:28] the one that just addressed the question
[1:04:31] or asked the question
[1:04:33] that you find maybe just 20 minutes
[1:04:36] in the morning just to
sit in one question,
[1:04:39] even just part of it
[1:04:41] and begin somewhere and just
take it on as a practice,
[1:04:44] and have an amazing day, and amazing life.
[1:04:48] - I would add something to that.
[1:04:52] When you do The Work on a situation
[1:04:54] that you feel is not okay,
[1:04:57] if you ask the question sincerely,
[1:05:02] if you actually first
frame the thoughts clearly
[1:05:05] and then ask the questions sincerely,
[1:05:08] where you'll end up is
not with a prescription
[1:05:11] to stay or leave.
[1:05:14] What you'll end up with is an open heart.
[1:05:17] And a love towards the person
who you're at first angry
[1:05:21] at or disappointed with, and
[1:05:24] there's no prescription for
a particular action there.
[1:05:30] There is
[1:05:32] a process of
[1:05:36] unraveling
[1:05:38] thoughts that may not be true.
[1:05:40] Thoughts that are causing you suffering.
[1:05:42] And once you are able to
unravel those thoughts,
[1:05:47] most people, many people, who are
[1:05:51] doing The Work sincerely find
[1:05:53] that it becomes absolutely
clear what to do
[1:05:56] in this situation.
[1:05:57] You cannot know beforehand.
[1:05:59] You can think a situation is not okay
[1:06:01] and it may be okay.
[1:06:02] It may not be okay.
[1:06:04] But after you've subjected these
[1:06:07] thoughts that cause suffering to
[1:06:10] thoroughgoing inquiry,
the clarity that you get
[1:06:16] at the end of that process
[1:06:17] is something that allows you to
[1:06:22] effortlessly know what to do.
[1:06:25] And it's resolved in the clarity.
[1:06:28] And you cannot have
predicted that beforehand.
[1:06:32] So I would add that.
- The clearer the mind,
[1:06:38] the choices we make.
[1:06:41] Should I, shouldn't I, this
is right, this is wrong.
[1:06:43] The choices we make and
as we continue inquiry,
[1:06:48] it just becomes effortless.
[1:06:50] It's
[1:06:55] the clearer the mind,
the clearer our choices.
[1:07:00] Like why do we have to
hate each other to divorce?
[1:07:03] Why can't we just love each other
[1:07:11] and share each other's lives
[1:07:14] if we
[1:07:16] are single or
[1:07:18] marry someone else I mean
[1:07:20] why do we have to be enemies to
[1:07:23] divorce or separate, it's just,
[1:07:26] you know we can do that.
[1:07:29] We can do that without being enemies.
[1:07:32] Or I can do that without being,
[1:07:35] it's okay if my partner
has a problem with it.
[1:07:40] He is not my
[1:07:42] he is not my enemy and I'm not his enemy.
[1:07:45] Whatever his perception.
[1:07:48] - Right.
[1:07:48] - And people who are deeply in The Work
[1:07:50] know from experience that it's possible
[1:07:53] to divorce someone with absolute love,
[1:07:57] with never any anger.
[1:07:59] Or to
[1:08:01] experience the death of a beloved parent
[1:08:04] or a beloved of any sort without
[1:08:07] a trace of sadness, with just love.
[1:08:10] This is what happens when you
[1:08:13] free yourself from
[1:08:16] believing anything you think.
[1:08:18] It becomes beautiful, always,
whatever the experience.
[1:08:21] - And also at that nine
day School for The Work,
[1:08:25] people come in, they
[1:08:28] people are actually it seems to me
[1:08:31] learning to come to
the School for The Work
[1:08:33] before they divorce. (laughs)
[1:08:35] Or it's just.
[1:08:38] But you know by the time they leave
[1:08:40] they know who they're divorcing.
[1:08:42] You know no two people have ever met,
[1:08:43] but when you meet yourself,
[1:08:46] you know then you're
[1:08:48] you can see others more clearly.
[1:08:51] When you are privileged
[1:08:54] and open enough to see yourself clearly.
[1:08:56] Which always shows up in The Work.
[1:08:59] - Where can people
[1:09:02] go to learn more about The Work,
[1:09:05] the worksheets, the nine
day school, and so on?
[1:09:08] What if people wanna take the next step
[1:09:10] to explore The Work, what do you suggest?
[1:09:13] - That they
[1:09:14] first The Work is free on thework.com.
[1:09:17] If I have anything of
value, it is free there.
[1:09:21] And so I just don't believe that
[1:09:24] anyone can ever own it
or have to pay for it.
[1:09:28] And other than your identity
it may cost you that.
[1:09:32] But that's not a bad thing.
[1:09:35] But they can look at the events,
[1:09:38] you know the events
calendar on thework.com
[1:09:41] and I have one coming up it's,
[1:09:43] I call it The Nobody.
[1:09:45] And it is,
[1:09:48] it's very, very different than
[1:09:52] The School for The Work.
[1:09:54] And The School for The Work
is a nine day experience
[1:09:56] where we work on fear and terror
[1:09:58] and we work on
relationships, and we work on
[1:10:03] the things we're most ashamed of.
[1:10:05] And prejudice.
- Men and women.
[1:10:07] - And men and women and
[1:10:09] if you know the, what
humans, what we stumble over,
[1:10:13] those big things.
[1:10:15] I have like capsules and we go from
[1:10:17] we do one capsule from start to finish
[1:10:20] and then we just step into another one
[1:10:23] and another one and it is,
[1:10:25] it's like a checkmate school.
[1:10:29] It's, I love that school.
[1:10:32] I love that school and we have
[1:10:36] also some scholarships available
[1:10:39] for the school so that
[1:10:43] with these tuitions we
can play it forward.
[1:10:47] - That's great.
[1:10:48] - And it's
[1:10:49] if anyone, if anyone you know has the
[1:10:55] a way of taking nine
days out of their life
[1:10:57] and they have the
[1:11:00] money for it,
[1:11:02] or the
[1:11:05] they can take that time up,
[1:11:07] if they can carve those
nine days out then it's,
[1:11:12] I just can't imagine anyone,
[1:11:13] it's not true, I can
imagine it but for myself,
[1:11:17] living in this world I can't imagine
[1:11:21] spending the rest of my life
without doing that school first
[1:11:24] because that, the school is comprised of
[1:11:26] my first three years.
[1:11:28] That's where all the exercise come out of.
[1:11:30] - Wow, that sounds amazing.
[1:11:32] - It really is.
- It's worth saying again that
[1:11:35] complete and detailed instructions
about how to do The Work
[1:11:39] with lots of videos of Katie
[1:11:42] on thework.com free of charge.
[1:11:45] - Also I have a helpline on thework.com.
[1:11:48] - Oh cool.
[1:11:49] - And they don't ask your name,
[1:11:51] they don't ask where you're from,
[1:11:53] and you just fill in a worksheet.
[1:11:55] You just print it free of charge,
[1:11:57] and you call and they'll work,
[1:12:00] they'll work with you
[1:12:03] absolutely just freely.
[1:12:05] You don't have to sign up for anything
[1:12:07] or even say your name.
[1:12:09] And if you don't know,
[1:12:12] if you just can't fill in the worksheet
[1:12:14] cause your mind is too busy then
[1:12:16] you can also call the help line
[1:12:18] and they'll help you
fill in the worksheet.
[1:12:19] - That's so cool, that is so cool.
[1:12:22] - And then we also have
people that have been to
[1:12:25] a minimum of two School for The Works,
[1:12:27] two nine-day School for The Works,
[1:12:29] and they've been through
the certification program
[1:12:32] where they evaluate each
other, self-evaluation.
[1:12:36] So no one
[1:12:38] all together.
[1:12:40] they determine who's
certified, this community.
[1:12:45] Their profiles are also on thework.com
[1:12:50] and you can see the things
that they've worked through
[1:12:53] that they thought that they
[1:12:54] just could never get through
[1:12:56] and you might have some of that in common
[1:12:57] and maybe that's a
facilitator you wanna call.
[1:13:00] Also if you have people in other language
[1:13:02] that don't speak English, there's so,
[1:13:05] there are oh my goodness there's so many
[1:13:08] language of certified facilitators
[1:13:11] on thework.com, so.
[1:13:14] Hopefully something for everyone.
[1:13:17] - That's great, that's great.
[1:13:19] And of course, this book.
[1:13:21] A Mind At Home With Itself.
[1:13:23] - Yeah.
[1:13:24] - Which is the basis for
this conversation and
[1:13:27] has this beautiful picture on it.
[1:13:30] And I just
[1:13:32] thank you so, so much
[1:13:35] for your time, for your
[1:13:39] the way you hold hands.
[1:13:41] For your
[1:13:43] wisdom and your generosity.
[1:13:46] Thank you very much.
[1:13:48] - Susan,
[1:13:50] thank you.
[1:13:52] - You're welcome.
- And what I appreciate
[1:13:53] is to see such a
[1:13:58] such an amazing teacher
as yourself, so humble,
[1:14:02] that you would just fill in a worksheet,
[1:14:04] and just do your work,
[1:14:06] and I just, it touches me very deeply.
[1:14:10] - Very touching.
- Thank you for that.
[1:14:11] - Oh. (laughs)
[1:14:13] That's very kind.
[1:14:15] - And brave, too.
[1:14:16] - Oh, you guys.
[1:14:18] - Yeah.
[1:14:19] - That's very nice, thank you.
[1:14:20] - Maybe not brave for you but certainly,
[1:14:23] certainly for some of us it would be
[1:14:26] radically courageous.
[1:14:29] - I'm very touched by that.
[1:14:31] Thank you.
- Thank you.
[1:14:34] - I will
[1:14:36] be thinking of you both
with so much warmth and
[1:14:39] I just,
[1:14:41] open heartedness and
[1:14:45] again I thank you and
I thank you on behalf
[1:14:47] of The Open Heart Project for
[1:14:49] just being here with us and
[1:14:53] helping us connect
[1:14:55] our whole life as
[1:14:58] the practice.
[1:15:00] Cushion or no cushion.
[1:15:02] - Yeah, yeah.
[1:15:04] Thank you, Susan.
[1:15:06] - Thank you so much.
[1:15:07] - Bye-bye.
- Bye-bye.
